DJC49 wrote:
So, *Michael*, who exactly are these "rest of the dead" mentioned in Rev 20:5?
Are these "REST OF THE DEAD" saints?
And if they are NOT saints, then what are they doing having a part in "the first resurrection?"
I ask this because according to the very next verse (Rev 20:6), "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection."
PLEASE explain what's happening here.
Pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism is very, VERY confusing to me!
Thanks.

I didn't write the Bible, but considering all the difficult doctrines that we probably agree on, I don't understand what's so hard about accepting that the New Jerusalem will be a 1500 mile per side cube.

There's plenty of room in such a cube for the saints. Assuming all us "dispys" are wrong, and the dominionist wing of the covenanters is right and the Lord tarries another few millenia so they can completely evangelize the world before he returns so we end up with 2 trillion saints in heaven; and assuming that the average saint gets 300,000 square feet total in a three-story mansion with 20 foot ceilings (ranging from 300 million sqare feet in 30 stories for logicians from Arizona to a one story 30 square foot cell for wretched sinners like me), of the 3.375 billion cubic miles in the cube, that still leaves 3.2935 billion cubic miles for other stuff. Say God's throne and the seraphim etc. uses up 2 billion cubic miles of worship space in the center - that's still over a billion cubic miles left.

Jesus created the universe in 6 days. He's been preparing a place for us for 2000 years, so I reckon it will be pretty awesome.

fuzzy logic wrote:
It's late but I only now have I a chance to read all of the comments.
Robert stated: "...only a non-literal hermeneutic will permit the amillennial position."
That's absolutely correct! Otherwise, Christians would be looking for a literal beast coming out of the sea and land, or a woman in the wilderness, etc.
Revelation 21:15-16
*And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
*And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
So, is this heavenly Jerusalem "LITERALLY" a 1500 mile cube?
Yes or No.

GK: We might note that nearly all the writings mentioned predate the creeds by 100 - 200 years - but then we might run afoul of Neil's penchant for Greek logic and the genetic fallacy. Of course, the canonical writings of Paul and John predate all of them - but now we're back to proper interpretation...

Neil: Nothing against Greek logic, when kept in its proper place, but it is inferior to revelation. But it seems obvious that we are unlikely to persuade you that the preterist position is untenable from Scripture, and that applying proper hermeneutics is not really all that difficult, and only a non-literal hermeneutic will permit the amillennial position. So believe that God will not fulfill his promises to Israel if you like (the logical end to amillennial reasoning of the scriptures), but leave me out of that, please.

fuzzy logic wrote:
Secondly, your POV has to start with the premise that there is a DIFFERENCE between Jews and Christians. This has NO SCRIPTURAL basis. All the Spiritual seed of Abraham is the mystery revealed called the Church--the Faithful of Christ who are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Overcomer wrote:
Historical Chrisitianity did not hold this doctrine for the first 1800 years. Google: Margaret McDonald, Darby, Scoffield. It doesn't take long to uncover the true roots of the pre-tribulation theory.

John Yurich USA wrote:
Are you stating that Jesus considers the Bible readings and prayers to Him during Mass to be blasphemous? Why would Jesus consider the Bible readings and prayers to Him to be blasphemous?

When the people attending a mass pray:

"May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good, and the good of all his Church,"

they are declaring Christ's death on the cross to have been an insufficient offering for sin. That is blasphemy.

That Catholics argue about whether to stand before, during, or after saying this prayer indicates the sorry state of their relationship with Jesus. Jesus doesn't care about that. Luke 18:9-14 gives a good example of how important the attitude of prayer is.

"Weakland said Christians needed to speak more openly about gays in the priesthood without the "hysteria" that often characterizes the debate.

"...He said he was not bitter about how the scandal had eclipsed his decades of work in the church.

"I refused to let myself become a victim and refused to let myself become angry," he said. "I want to take responsibility but I want to move on."

San Jose John wrote:
I can't help wondering if our increasingly corrupt society is causing many of its members to identify and actually sympathize (consciously or not) with bad people, like pedophiles, motivating them to legislate like this.

Consider the comments of self-confessed non-believer John Lucas of Ohio, for example.

Of course, we are not under the OT law, so stoning is not the solution, but rather the ministry of reconciliation to God by the preaching of the gospel. It would be more convenient and comfortable if our government would not encourage sin by passing such laws, but such is not the case these days, so we should also continue to pray for our governing officials, as instructed by the NT.

I do agree that the Bible spells out church discipline procedure, and says that there are men who will be leaders in each assembly, and that these men will be held accountable for shepherding the sheep. So far, so good.

Based on abuses I have seen in "Bible-believing" churches (complete with weekly and bi-weekly expository teaching!), though, I think having one "senior pastor" who does all the preaching and teaching, and men-appointed elders who handle these spiritual duties, is a bad idea. Very frequently men are appointed elders by other men for the wrong reasons (e.g., because they give a lot of money, or have business experience), without regard to the gift(s) the Spirit has given them. Is that the "democracy" idea, or did you have something else in mind?

Jim, I can't agree here. Understanding the time of creation from the Bible depends on the method of interpretation applied. Allowing for millions of years somewhere in the verses of Genesis opens the door to bad interpretation elsewhere, since it denies the plain, ordinary meaning of the language.

Also, revelation from God is of much greater value than man's science. He doesn't owe us full explanations.

San Jose John wrote:
Maybe a third party is worth a try soon.

Politics and politicians cannot save us. The government cannot save us. Better laws cannot save us - the best law ever given wasn't enough to save Israel.